[Introduction to Podcast] This is an ABC podcast.

[Lisa] I'm fired up now, the stirring
voices of the Red Army Choir.

Yes, comrades, on this
episode of This Working Life,

we are going back to the USSR
to find out what Russians can teach

us about something we do
in our working lives every day.

Sometimes without even
knowing it, we negotiate.

Hello, I'm Lisa Leong.

Kyle Wilson is a former diplomat,
Russian expert and visiting

fellow at the Centre for
European Studies at ANU.

Allan Parker is a renowned negotiator whose
books include The Negotiator's Toolkit.

Kyle and Allan are my guests on
this, our latest instalment of this

Working Lives Book Club.

Previet, both of you.

How did I go, Kyle?

[Kyle] Excellent. 4 out of 5.

[Lisa] The book we're discussing is called

The Kremlin School of Negotiation.

Intrigued, well here's a taste.

[Book Reader] The Kremlin School of Negotiation
is based on five postulates.

Keep quiet and listen attentively
to what your opponent says.

Ask questions, impose a scale of

values and depreciate your opponent.

Roll out the red carpet and make the

opponent an offer
they can't refuse.

Put the opponent in
the zone of uncertainty.

[Lisa] Kyle Wilson, the Kremlin
School of Negotiation is written by

Russian Business Coach, Igor Rizov.

As we heard in that extract, the
Kremlin method is about gaining

trust, then upsetting the equilibrium.

How does that method resonate
with you in terms of the Russia you

know, Kyle?

[Kyle] Well, first of all, I asked the most

senior Australian
businessman in Russia

who would prefer to remain
anonymous. But who's been there for 30

years. And who knows Vladimir Putin

quite well, whether
there was any such

thing as a Kremlin
School of Negotiation

and he said that's complete nonsense.

That is pure marketing by the
author and by the publishers.

Though he said,
you could say there's

the Kremlin School of Negotiation

and it would be the following.

We make the rules. We set the terms

of the negotiation and you adapt.

So I guess, I would like to make that

point that the title is misleading.

It seems to me the common sense
rules about communication, building

ease, building trust,

clear objectives, good preparation.
They apply everywhere.

So yeah, okay, there are Russian
specifics and they're important

Russian specifics.

And they become important if
you're negotiating with them but they

come down to negotiating
with any other country.

You know the
Chinese, the Indonesian,

the Indians. You've got to know them

and you've got to show them that
you've thought about them and that

you respect them.

[Lisa] So Kyle, let's go to your experience.
You studied in the Soviet

Union as a young student.

I'd love to hear about the kind
of transactional negotiations that

would actually go on in everyday life.

Can you give us some
examples from your time there?

[Kyle] It's pretty hard for people
who've never lived in a centrally

planned economy,

where essentially it's a non-cash
economy. And where all decisions

on production, marketing, distribution
are taken by a bureaucrat.

In other words, in the Soviet
Union, the principle of supply and

demand simply did not apply.

Government bureaucrats decided what

people needed and
what they didn't need.

And so in those circumstances,
what you tend to get is, what's

really crucial is your network

and the informal relationships
you have. And because money didn't

really have much of a role to play.

I mean as a student in the Soviet
Union, my monthly stipend was 150

rubles.

The wage of a fully qualified
Soviet medical doctor was 120 rubles.

But those 150 rubles wouldn't buy
me much because money didn't open

doors for you.

What opened doors for you was
whom you knew and what you knew.

[Lisa] So see, that flavour of negotiation
between those informal networks

we're talking about.

Allan, as a professional negotiator,
how do you think that plays out

in this book?

[Allan] I'd like to endorse a lot of
what Kyle was saying here.

One of the premises is listen
carefully and ask really good quality

questions.

I think that's universal. The idea

of trust is very
fragile phenoma.

Because in some cultures it's
not to trust and not to expect it.

And yet in other cultures
trust is incredibly important.

[Lisa] And the USSR for many years
was a pariah in the international

community, the enemy
during the Cold War.

So are you then Allan, more likely
to see a boots and all negotiating

style if one party is
feeling backed into a corner?

[Allan] If I can say that there's three
different ways that negotiation

takes place across any culture,
any environment, any industry.

We're either opponents and we're
tug of warring. And I'm putting my

point of view forward
and you're putting another.

And we end up, our best is compromise.

The second one is where we might
do compromise. But then we go, now

that we've got a deal.

What could we do together
that would enrich what we've got?

Which means we've started to
create cooperation. But it's because we

cracked the deal that
worked for those of us.

So I don't go, do I trust you or

don't I? I go the
results were there, yeah.

Let me take it a step further and
see how much this person wants to

work with me.

[Lisa] Let's hear more from the book now.

[Book Reader] As we know, whatever negotiation
technique you select, it should

meet the following criteria.

It leads to a reasonable agreement,
is effective in getting results

and improves, or, at the very least
doesn't worsen relations between

the parties.

[Lisa] Do you agree Allan?

[Allan] Yes, but it's  very incomplete.

[Lisa] What bit's are missing?

[Allan] The assumption is that the goal
or the target that we're going for

is actually the best one that we have.

Now if we do good ongoing negotiation
and we're exploring options

and possibilities and needs,

we come up with innovative ideas,
that blows the initial goal out of

the water. And we could
end up with much much more.

And that's called maximisation.

So you've got division,
integration and maximisation.

Maximisation is where we all get more.

[Lisa] And let's go back a
step and how would

you define negotiation then, Allan?

[Allan] Negotiation is every interaction
that occurs between every human

being no matter what.

[Lisa] Okay, that's a bit
of a wider definition.

[Allan] It's a big definition.  See, I walked into the room here today and every
part of your nonverbal communication was communicating.

And you were totally unconscious of

what you're doing
with your non verbals.

But it was welcoming, it was
engaging, it was interested, it was

curious, your questions
were sailient and straight away.

[Lisa] Thank you.

[Allan] The ground works laid for
beautiful exploration and possibility.

[Lisa] And Kyle, did you have a
different flavour on the definition of

negotiation for you?

[Kyle] Look, I just wanted to make the
point that what is reasonable for

one side, is not necessarily
reasonable for another.

The definition of terms
is absolutely crucial.

Let me give an example.

Let's take the present ongoing
and bloody conflict between Russia

and Ukraine.

The gist of the matter here
is quite clear to all of us.

What are the legitimate expectations
of the Russians as regards

their security?

And what are the legitimate
expectations of the Ukrainians as

regards their security?

Now, if you can come to an agreement
about what is legitimate, you

might have the basis for negotiation.

But so, how do you define reasonable?

I mean, Allan, know very well, there's
a famous model in negotiation.

It's called the PIN icebergs.

Two isosceles triangles sitting
together. Where they converge is

where you have common interests.

And the notion of the negotiation
is to pull these triangles closer

and closer together.

So your interests, you identify
where your interests converge or

coincide, what you have in common.

And on the basis of those perceptions
of shared interests, you try

to reach a compromise outcome.

Well, that's all very well, but
Allan will tell you better than me

for any negotiation.

There's a precondition for any
negotiation to be successful.

And that is a mutual will on
both sides to reach an outcome

we both agree is reasonable.
Well, there's a lot of negotiations

don't start like that.

Some negotiations are simply to
demonstrate that you're willing to

negotiate and therefore make you

look reasonable and statesmen like .

When in fact you have no desire
whatsoever to reach some kind of

compromise outcome because
the status quo happens to suit you.

[Allan] And Kyle, may I say that earlier I
said, made the comment, that it was

too inaccurate but incomplete.

And a lot of what you're
saying is what I was referring to.

And the word I want to pick up
first is the word of willingness.

In any negotiation, the first
thing after the preparation process

and I think preparation's
got to be 80%.

I managed a meeting for the United
Nations eight years ago and it was

an hour and 20 minute meeting.
And I spent six months preparing and

I did 162 hours of interviews
with everyone of the 468 people.

[Lisa] That's what I do for business
meetings as well as a prep.

[Allan] We don't do, we don't
do, we don't do enough.

But I went in, having interviewed
every person in that negotiation.

And people go, you didn't. I
go, yes I did.  I was the only person

in the room who knew
what everybody agreed to.

[Lisa] Because you're
interested in their interests.

[Allan] I showed a willingness to understand

who they were and how they operated.

So whether they were government
or whether they were commercial,

whether they were male, whether they were female, whether

they were religiously
oriented or not.

I was working with them to gather
information. But mostly to identify,

how did I need to think and behave
so that I could compliment their

culture, not talk about it.

[Lisa] What were some of the
cultural differences, Allan?

[Allan] Well, if you divide the
world's cultural populations into

categories. Philosophically,
you've got indirect cultures and

direct cultures.

Your Russian language is direct, your German language is
direct. Your Eastern European blocks are very direct.

So they make a lot of
firm and clear statements.

If I go to Asia, I'm not going to use definitive language and you'll notice my voice is dropped.

And you, you're listeners can't see,

but my entire body has softened.

And now my eyes are indirect,
my head's not facing directly at you.

My eyes are softened, my eyes
are now lower than yours, which is a

mark of respect to you.

And my gestures are soft and
moving from the mid line out. Whereas,

with the German people, I'm
going to have my gestures firm and

strong and pointing
toward them and be direct.

[Lisa] How important is the voice?

[Allan] Oh, very.
[Lisa] Right. [Allan] Very.

[Lisa] And tell us about what the voice

is signifying then for negotiation ?

[Allan] Well, if I do that voice quality,
that sounds like I'm genuinely

fascinated and
interested in what it is.

If I want you to think differently,
I'll pause longer and I'll hold

gestures.

Lisa, just imagine.

[Lisa] So it's not one voice?  [Allan] Now if I go, Lisa just imagine.

Complete, activating completely
different parts of your brain.

[Lisa] so it's not one voice fits all?

[Allan] No.

My advice to everybody is what
ever is in front of you, match it.

So if you notice when I came into
the door and you were energetic

and vivacious and that you were
moving quite a bit, I moved with you.,

You were speaking
quickly, I spoke quickly.

Your sentence, your question were short and precise. So my

responses were.
[Lisa] Thought I liked you.

[Allan] Totally contrite. But it's important
for me to give up being Allan

and Allan's culture. And going, what
do I need to become, to have this

person feel like I'm with them?

[Lisa] What's interesting to me, is that I

feel that authenticity is important.

So if you're only working on
behaviours, like how I'm going to

change my voice, am I going
to pick up that there's something a

little bit wrong here, Allan.

[Allan] The first page of the book that
I highlighted, the word 'practice'

was in italics and
bolded and I highlighted it.

And whatever we
practice becomes authentic.

[Lisa] Kyle Wilson, you witnessed the
late Bob Hawke in action. Tell us

about what you saw.

[Kyle] What I saw of Hawke's technique,
tallies with what Allan was just

saying. He was pretty
good at picking up signals.

Most Australians, I think,
because we're an island and we're

usually not multi-lingual, we
tend to be a bit parochial and I

think sometimes, we're not too
good at picking up on cultural

differences and really studying
other cultures and adapting.

Without losing our identity,
because, of course, ultimately you've

got to be yourself.

Nonetheless, Hawke, although he
spoke no foreign language, he was

very good at studying his partner.

And I saw him in negotiations
with the then Soviet Foreign Minister

, the Russian Foreign
Minister, Chevrolet Nudze.

Hawke would sit back from the table.

His voice would be
carefully modulated.

No aggressive gestures. It would
never point, no emphatic gestures.

You know, those politicians, it
was said of Bill Clinton that, if

you ever met him, he made you feel

you were the only
person in the world.

And Hawke had that ability to
focus on his partner very closely. Be

sympathetic, look for a
way through, show respect.

So with Hawke, you
had the two things

you had substance and you had style.

[Lisa] And you also
witnessed Paul Keating in

action. How different was his style?

[Kyle] Well, Keating was the most
effective negotiator of those I saw

dealing with the Chinese.

Though the other one who was
very effective was Tim Fischer, former

Deputy Prime Minister,
but known for his sincerity.

But Keating was remarkable because,
well, he had Hawke's ability to

listen, Hawke's ability to focus,

Hawke's ability to put the
Chinese at their ease by his body

language. Allan was referring to that.

But also he had marvellous little
tricks. And one of them I saw in

action a couple of times
is, he would use props.

So if sitting at a formal banqueting
table, he would pick up the

knife or the fork.

On one occasion, he was trying
to explain to the Chinese the

importance of trust and
not being hyper suspicious.

And he was saying that the former
Chinese Prime Minister, Li Peng,

was hyper suspicious.

And he lifted up the plate and
looked under it. Then he lift up the

napkin and looked under that.
And then he looked under the table.

And the Chinese were absolutely
fascinated. And they knew what he

was saying.

What he was saying was respectful.
By that stage by the way, Li Peng

had already retired.

But Keating's message was,
look, you can take suspicion too far.

We need to find a modicum of being

at ease with each
other, if not trust.

But these little gestures and
these sort of stage business, it was

hugely effective with the Chinese.

[Lisa] Let's hear more from the
Kremlin School of Negotiation.

[Book Reader] If you don't want a fight to
hit up, don't get personal.

Instead, set out the facts and try
to make fewer value judgments.

Separating the individual
from the issue at stake is key.

[Lisa] This is an interesting area, Allan
Parker. What do you think about

this separation?

[Allan] If I may honour the late Roger
Fisher. Lisa,  Lisa's just showed

me the book.

She has the book I'm
referring to on her desk.

[Lisa] It's well loved, this
book by Roger Fisher.

[Allan] It's a must, must read book.

[Lisa] The book is called "Getting to Yes".

[Allan] In that, they were the first people
to talk about cooperation, as a

mode that they were
recommending, not competition.

First time ever. They said, we
have to separate the problem.

Now, what Keating was doing was
locating the problem somewhere else.

So that it wasn't between him and

the person that
they were talking to.

He was de-personalising and
putting the problem over there, so that

the relationship could exist
between them and the problem didn't

cause tension.

[Lisa] I think what it recognises, so
the Roger Fisher approach, getting

to Yes, is that you are
negotiating with a human being.

[Allan] Yes.

[Lisa] And those deeper human needs tend
to trump because we get into the limbic

system. We get into this reactive

system if you're not aware of it.

[Allan] Exactly.

The moment that the limbic system,
the emotional part of the brain,

the reptilian brain, runs the
show, you're in trouble. And it is

actually stated in the book.

[Lisa] Kyle Wilson, have you witnessed
any disastrous negotiations?

[Kyle] I'm just thinking of a famous case
where the Australian government,

on behalf of Carlton United
Breweries, put a lot of effort into

supporting a negotiation.

Carlton United was seeking a
licence to establish a brewery in Tian

Jin in China.

All went very well for a long time
and they were getting towards

agreement, signature of
agreement. And they invited a Chinese

delegation to Melbourne.

All went well. Chinese restaurants,
they observed most of the

cultural proprieties. And then
came the very end, where it was the

exchange of gifts.

The members of the Chinese
delegation were given by Carlton United

Breweries, a Carlton United Breweries
baseball cap, which was green.

Now there's an
expression in Chinese,

"Lui Mao Zah", to wear a green hat.

What it means is your
partner is cheating on you.

[Lisa] Oh.

[Kyle] Now of course the Chinese understood
this was just the barbarian's

ignorance. But as you can
imagine, it was most unfortunate.

[Lisa] Is it the long game that we should
be working towards when it comes

to negotiation?

Because, maybe it's not a failure
to walk away if you preserved your

position and the
relationship for a later date.

[Kyle] I mean I think that's crucial.

Allan would know full well that
one of the truisms about negotiation

is that negotiations
are rarely productive.

Unless both sides have a mutual
interest in a future relationship,

an ongoing relationship.

So it's a little bit like the
meeting that you go to and the

objective of your objective in
the meeting is that the person you

meet will be impressed by you
and will want to see you again.

It seems to me that
there's a parallel here.

So, if you're going into a negotiation
thinking in the longer term,

and autocracies tend to do that.
Mr Putin has been in power for 20

years, but we suffer from this
disadvantage of short termism.

So it seems to me that a sensible,
wise negotiator will be thinking,

"Okay, we have this specific
task to achieve. Let us say, with the

Indonesians or the Chinese."

At the end of the day we want to come away with at least a
handshake between four walls, preferably a signed piece of paper.

But no, we will be dealing with
Indonesia, our largest neighbour,

for decades to come. So it's
important to bear that in mind.

[Lisa] Okay, let here a final extract from

the Kremlin School of Negotiation.

[Book Reader] Remember, negotiations cannot
be won or lost. It's only possible to

determine exactly where you are

and what your next
steps need to be .

[Lisa] Allan,, do you agree with that?

[Allan] It's very accurate
and very incomplete.

I'm a behavioural scientist, for
the listeners, in microbehavior.

So my entire life research has
been what happens in just three

seconds.
So it's about, how do I manage now?

And then the next now and the
next now and the next now and the

next now and the
next now. And I break

everything into three second bits.

And I go, "Lisa is now nodding her head

at me and giving me
acknowledgement."

So I'm going to
affirm that again and

now I've got more acknowledgement.

[Lisa] Did you see that wink?  I winked at you. [Allan] The minute
you get the nod and the wink, I

then go, next subject.

[Lisa] So I've noticed a couple of times
you've mentioned, that the book is

incomplete.

So in summary, Allan, in your professional experiences
as a negotiator, what do you think of this book,

the Kremlin School of Negotiation?

[Allan] The Kremlin book, well I agree
with the first comment about the

title. It's just marketing.
The book itself, is a relatively

realistic perspective on
competitive, oppositional and enemy

oriented management
in a relationship context.

It mentions occasionally, the need
to cooperate and work together.

But it doesn't give
you any of those tools.

And it doesn't go anywhere near
maximization. So it doesn't go,

"How do we all work together
to get more than we all want?"

And Kyle, you're not a fan of
the book, what would your top

negotiation books be?

[Kyle] Look, I don't want
to dissuade people

from buying and reading this book.

Igor Rezov is a Russian.
For centuries, Russia has had a kind of

highly ambivalent relationship
with the countries around it.

And much, for much of its history,
it has perceived itself as being

in a hostile relationship with
countries around it. They are

naturally combative.

It's worth reading. What it's
worth reading for are the historical

anecdotes, which are
absolutely fascinating.

So I would say, read the historical

anecdotes, they
are really fascinating.

My best book, I suppose, is my favorite book called
"Riding the Waves of Culture" and it's by two

authors, a Dutchman, an Englishman.

Thron Penaars and Hampton
Turner, "Riding the Waves of Culture".

[Lisa] Great, well now I've
got lots of reading.

Thank you both, Kyle Wilson,
former diplomat, Russian expert

visiting fellow at the Centre for
European Studies at ANU and Allan

Parker, consultant, negotiator
and author of a number of books,

including The Negotiators Toolkit. Previet to both.

And a very special thanks to
Victoria Stankiva. Victoria is a

former journalist and Russian
expat now living in Sydney, who runs

an annual networking event for the

Russian-speaking business community.

And Victoria very kindly
did those book readings for us.

I'm Lisa Leong, and this episode
of tThis Working Life was produced

by Kathy Pryor and the sound
engineer was Selwyn Cousins.

To listen to our other book clubs,
check out our podcast on Apple

Podcasts or wherever
you get your podcasts from.

And if you do like
what you hear, please

do rate and review. It all counts.

Until next week, keep working.

Can I just say you both have
seen a lot and we should do a secret

episode with all of your stories.

[Allan] That could be frightening, I suspect.

[Lisa] Very frightening indeed.

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