[Varous speakers] Deep listening, deep listening, deep listening, deep listening, deep listening, deep listening, impact beyond words. [Allan] Our best listening is done without our body. So if we could listen with our eyes and ears, clarify and confirm and once we're certain that we've got the meaning the person wants,. And then I check in on how I feel.. Which is the sort of things that sometimes people do is pretend listening, and sometimes is authentic listening. However, if every now and again I stop and I go, can I just check,that I've got it right, what you're saying? But what you're doing is, you've got constant nodding going on, which the audience can't see, that you're nodding. Each time I say something that appeals to you, your eyebrows raise up. I think if somebody said to me, how do we improve the productivity of Australian business? I would say, hit pause button before you speak. Take a breath, because oxygen in the brain will increase your thinking. Regularly check that you've heard and understood the meaning that the person wanted to deliver. Not my opinion, my judgment, my assumption, my hallucination. But to really reflect back and check that what you want me to hear is what I've got. And it woul mean that you feel heard. You'd feel more confident that whatever I was going to do with what you've told me is just an mathematically better chance. [Oscar] In this episode of Deep Listening, Impact Beyond Words, we listen to Allan a behavioural scientist, explore with me as Allan Deconstruct how I listen to him during the interview. Learn about how to speak so the other person can listen to you completely. Notice how Allan uses the neuroscience of listening, the role of the brain, and a new discovery for me, the role of the nervous system, and how it controls what you hear and what you shut down from hearing as well. I'm excited about how Allan explores listening in time, through time, and across time. This is one of the most challenging interviews for me personally, as Allan really expanded the landscape about how to listen beyond the mind. Let's listen to Allan. [Various speakers] Deep Listening Deep Listening Deep Listening Deep Listening Deep Listening. [Oscar] Deep Listening Impact Beyond Words for the book is available via Amazon or at oscotrimboly.com/books. It's organised in a really practical way around the five levels of listening. Whether I speak on stage, or listeners, who email me after listening to the podcast, the most common question is what's the most practical tip I can give somebody to improve their listening? And it always starts with the level one, listen to yourself. How do you prepare yourself so that you can listen to somebody else in the dialogue. And the deeper that you breathe, the deeper you listen? Check out the book, Deep Listening Impact Beyond Words, and you'll be able to move from an unconscious listener to a deep and powerful listener. [Various Speakers] Deep Listening Deep Listening Deep Listening Deep Listening Deep Listening. [Allan] I've got a bigger, broader question of why is this of interest to your audience. And, part of me wants to say, because, you know, my research would indicate that we listen more poorly every day. And we have an urgent need to turn that around. But, that's my view. The majority of people think they listen pretty well. And I think that's part of the problem. And of course, the biggest problem is that they listen to the voice inside their head. And while they're doing that, they're not hearing your understanding of what you're saying. At least what you want them to understand. And that means that their memory of it will be poor. Because they've never actually got it. You know, the receptors are not working if your're chatting to yourself. So at some point I'll talk briefly about some reliable techniques that are currently, momentarily silencing the inner chatter. Because just determining which part of the brain is working. And the auditory part is just, habitually,chatting the whole time. And like any part of the nervous system or the brain, the bit that we use gets stronger. And predominates. And unfortunately, we then, so I think about, that's how we are. But it is actually, learnt and conditioned process. And we can quiten it. Most people have no clue that they think outside the head. But of course, we do. Particularly in the visual channel, when we're thinking about what we're going to do tomorrow or next week or in a years time. The moment we start going through time, our brain has thoughts into the future. And if I said to you, what did you leave on the cupboard when you left home this morning? Part of your brain would actually go to the kitchen in your home. And we don't actually realise. Some people will make a picture of that inside the head. But many people will actually, in the moment, imagine that they went back into the house and their thought processes, way outside. So it's this, this, a fascinating world in which they'd be benefit if we all just paused and hit the pause button and went, hang on just a sec. You know, am I really listening and paying attention? Do I need Oscar to repeat what he just said? And one of the things I do, when the training programmes I do, is I say to people, I'm just going to make a simple statement. I want you to notice how you interpret it. And you know, how you feel or what pictures you make. And I go, the statement is, I just finished a training session. Now the people who know me as an educator and a trainer have a picture of me finishing a training session with a group of people. The people who know me as an endurance athlete see me just finishing a run. People who are not as aware of what I do physically, would think I'd just finished a session in the gym. So there's few simple words, and I've got a group of people who've interpreted it simply because the word training, which happens to be what's called an unspecified verb, which means you can hear it and know what the word is, but you can make multiple definitions or meanings or pictures associated with it. And we do that whole host of the time. [oscar] Practically, Allan, for our audience, what are the techniques you use to quieten down the voice in your head so you can be present to hear the other? [Allan] I'll give you a variety of them. And they're, each of them for the people who it's not suitable because I'm going to match the brain style. The people who like to feel an experiment and do and move and touch stuff, the people who are kinesthetic or active learners. I just say them just take the volume control and turn it down. Now, somebody who's not of that nature or that type of brain will go, "Oh, howridiculous." And there are some people who are very spatially oriented, and you'll watch them. They'll be gesturing, you know, and they're gestures quite structured and organised .So those people, I say, "Just take it further away." And the further away you take it, the lower the volume. A lot of people think inside their head and others think outside their head. Now, the people who think inside their head have no clue that the people who think outside are thinking outside. They think outside of "Have no clue that everybody else." See, we all think we think the same way. Some people will spell by remembering writing the word. And they'll say, "Let me write it." And other people will say, "Let me remember the sounds." And they'll remember it auditorily by sound. And some people will say, "Oh, let me just make a picture of that." And you'll often notice they often look up and they're pictures of it up on the ceiling, because there's less distraction. And so each particular preference, now 50% of everybody who makes pictures, which is about 60% of the world's population make pictures. Well, we all make pictures, but they think consciously, and are aware they have pictures. They invariably are good spellers. because they make a picture of the word, and the picture is a copy of what they saw. So they can actually not only spell it, most of them can spell it backwards. Whereas the people who sound it out will be the poor spellers, B ecause we're, our language is not phonetic. People who write it are amazingly accurate, but couldn't spell it if they couldn't write it. So each of those particular ways that our brain works needs to be utilized. So generally speaking, and the quickest and fastest and shortest way, is if I get you to switch your peripheral vision on, so I'm just flickering my fingers at the moment, so that I can see to the far right, into the far left of me at the same time. See, with the only vertebrae in the world, that actually has our direct vision switched on and we're mostly unaware of what goes on the inside, but all other animals check that. If we turn on what's going on in our peripheral vision, that part of the brain completely switches off, the speaking auditory part of the brain. Straight away. Now, if I do that to you, and I put my fingers out there, and just arms wide out, now you're not going to do that in public or in front of somebody. But you can practice that, and just stimulate. It's stimulating the neurons in the brain, but their visual neurons. A lot of the visual, while I'm looking at you directly, and I'm looking at John indirectly, and I'm looking at the cup of coffee over here. And I'm tracking a wide lens. When I do those three visual processes, the auditory brain switches off and has a rest. And those people who go, "Oh my goodness, I've just got this chatter going on inside my head, the whole time, that keeps me awake at night." And I just say to them, line your back, look at the ceiling, and see if you can see the extreme sides of the ceiling. Now, the minute you're peripheral vision's on, you'll find a relaxation, will occur, and the voice will quieten. Now, the other one I'vee going to mention is just ask somebody to turn the volume down. Or take it further away, or take the voice outside your head, so that you can actually hear the voice over to the side, as if it's coming in, not being made in. Now, that one will take a little bit of practice for most people, but the people who are spatial and auditory, they'll go, "Oh my goodness, that was so easy." So, it's really important for people to recognize that just experiment with all of them. The law work, if you persist. But there is one of them that will work best for each person because of how their brain sorted and organised. [Various speakers] Deep listening. Deep listening. Deep listening. [Oscar] So, what are you deducingyou as my preference in those styles you talked about earlier on? [Alklan] Well, it's a little bit harder for the listeners, because they can't see what I can see,. That your head is turned indirectly at about 30 degrees, which means that you're visually operating, but you're softly visually operating. So, if I was looking at you and you were looking at me, direct eye contact, direct head, you would, and the brows, your brows, the furrowing, and your pupils are dilating, and your face is going red. That's just because if I, you know, facing direct is a hard visual, which you're not. You're a soft visual. And the fact here, your head tilted around with your left ear, which is your dominant ear, closer to me. It's an indication that you've got the visual part of your brain and the auditory part of your brain working. So you're taking in the words, and transferring them into pictures, almost simultaneously. Now, your voice is considered slower and softer than the majority of people who are being in busy workplace. And that, and you're pausing, and the amount of movement that's going on your eyes, indicates that you're thinking considering, listening carefully. But also, every now and again, like you just did, your head tilted to the side, and there's a furrowing, which means, "Oh, I've now got to think about where I'm going next." Yeah, so it's strongly, it's softly visual,. But very considered with your auditory channel, Just in our interaction now. [Oscar] Well, what it's got me curious about, and I'm sensing maybe that the audience would be asking, is there a natural sequence in the way the brain processes those various components? [Allan] Lovely. Every one of us has a brain that processes visually. So we see the world, and we store it in our brain in pictures, and some of us store it in movies. Some people even have multiple screens above their head, where they store multiple things. And they're usually better at tracking complexity. The auditory brain is really important to listen to the words. The auditory part of the brain is critical in formulating our questions. The visual part of the brain means that we'll remember better, because the visual brain certainly recalls better than the auditory brain. However, there's a little thing in between what I'm saying, and your pictures, call hallucination. And unless you're saying, "Allan,I just stopped it for a minute. Can I check what you're saying is?" And confirming the pictures that you're making, you could be storing a whole different story. And that's why I say to people who've got to be interrupting regularly. Because we'll either They're making pictures of what I'm making based on what I'm hearing. But there might be some of the stuff that I'm saying that there's no interest to you. So there's no pictures. But then all of a sudden there's something you go, "Wow, I've got a movie show going on." Now you'll remember that more. So if I can use, like I did when you said, "What style am I operating in?" And I tried to explain to the audience what I was seeing that indicates to me which part of your brain is working. Now that was me describing something in pictorial form. So I mentioned the tilt of the head, the furrowing of the brow, the reddening of the face. They all stimulate increased pictures. And if I'm accurate in my visual description, they're more likely to have the picture that is the one that I'm trying to get across. The really interesting one is the kinesthetic senses. And unfortunately, a lot of the time I'll say something. And you'll have an emotional reaction to it. But it doesn't match what you like. It's something sensitive to you. It's a place that you're not very confident or comfortable or competent in. And you'll have a physical reaction. Now, while you're having that physical reaction, then going, "I'm not feeling very good about that." So you have the feeling and then you commentary the feeling. You're missing what I'm saying. So we've got to be really careful with the kinesthetic bit which is movement, taste, touch, smell, emotions, and sensory. It's am I tired? Am I hot? Am I cold? And our best listening s done without our body. So if we could listen with our eyes and ears, clarify and confirm. And once we're certain that we've got the meaning of the person wants, then I can check in on how I feel. But we have a feeling far far too prematurely. And it's why we interrupt each other. [Oscar] We've spent some time talking about the wiring of the brain. But I'm curious to explore the impact of the nervous system and particularly the gut, which has probably more receptors than even our brain. And how that shows up. [Allan] Well, it's a question that has changed substantially from ten years ago and from five years ago and the last year or two. I can remember when a gut response was something a woman did. No serious man would do that. Because you operated from logic, which of course is total nonsense. The gut sense is now an item that neuroscience is studying really substantially. And the neuroscientists are almost with that exception, giving much greater validity to it. And one of the reasons is that vagus's a major nerve that runs straight down the centre of your body called the vagus nerve. And at solar plexus, it branches to every major organ in your body. So it's almost like a control centre. So if you were to hear something and you go, wow, that's a really high risk, I've got to be careful about that. It will heighten your attention to what's said. It will reduce any activity in your gastrointestinal system. It will reduce the production of water and substances, in your kidneys. It will slow down the use of the liver. And it will just trickle out a little bit of cortisol and adrenaline to keep you sharp and alert. And that sharp and alertness will actually take blood out of your brain. So you are more likely to be alert, but more focused and more fix ated. And you're switch off, you're brain to anything that's peripheral, even if it's important. So it's important for us to recognise that that vagus nerve is like a maximum speed brain that, before you could even cognitively think it, the vagus nerve is saying, "Oscar, stop. Don't do that." And you're about to ask a question, there's a gut feel that's says, don't. , And it's the vagus nerve. that. And it's really good at saying yes and no. And in fact, I have a belief that at least 50% of all stress in human beings is that the vagus nerve is saying, "No, don't do that, and we do." And the opposite, sometimes it's saying, "Go ahead and do that, and we don't." And if we don't listen to the feedback in the nervous system, it will cause louder sounds. Now those louder sounds, that feedback, will distract us from good hearing. Because I'll get anxious. [Oscar] In your professional work, establishing trust across parties, is probably heightened through the vagus nerve or not. What suggestions would you give others to build trust so that that isn't activated or is activated? [Allan] What a beautiful question and unbelievably complex. Trust is really misunderstood. Trust is really your nervous system saying, "Reliable or unreliable".and You can count on this person or not." Now if I jump in and I go, "Yeah, I'm going to work with you, but my gut's saying, "No, don't." I'll hit a point at some stage where I go, "I don't trust him." And the vagus nerve is sitting down there and probably going, Oscar, I told you that." But we don't listen to the signals. Trust is really about reliability. "Can I count on you to do what we agreed?" Now you can't do that unless I've been really careful listening to what you're asking me. And if I don't clarify and confirm exactly what that means to you, and how you, what ? That means, and how you'd like that to happen. And where you'd like it to happen. and in what more timeframe. And how quickly or how many bits do you want me to break it down into? I could go off doing it, how I think. And then you go, "Yeah, well that's not what I said. "And I'd go, go, yes it is." And now you're going to walk round not trusting me, but it's not about trust. It was about misunderstanding. It went away. We rushed, we just ushed through things really. When we're negotiating, generating ideas, making decisions, it really is time for us to hit the pause button. And go, "Let me just do this slowly. Let me just take a little bit of time." And every now and again, go, "So Oscar, you're actually interested in the trust phenomenon." What would be the reason that the audience would be interested in that? And what, had you choose trust. It could have been credibility or could have been integrity? What was it that made that important for you? Now if I were to ask that, now I'm going to get much richer information. We don't, we don't, we don't simply do clarify and confirm. [Tracey Ezard] Deep listening is a beautiful pocket rocket of insight. Oscar Trimboly reveals the loss of connection, understanding and impact that our listening often brings. I found his unpacking of what we are really listening to to be profound for me personally, as well as incredibly useful for the clients I work with. This book is important. It provides tangible and doable ways to improve and deepen our listening. Oscar tells us, "Deep listening creates life-changing opportunities ." Thank you, Oscar, for this life-changing book. Tracey Ezard. [Oscar] I think one of the things you role model beautifully there, is showing others that you listen. And I think for a lot of people in our audience, they struggle to show that to the party they're listening to. What are the practical things that others could show that not only built trust, but show the other they're listening? Because I feel the two are quite connected. [Allan] The sort of things that sometimes people do is pretend listening and sometimes is authentic listening. However, if every now and again I stop and I just check that I've got it right. But what you're doing is you've got constant nodding going on, which the audience can't see. But you're nodding. Each time I say something that appeals to you, your eyebrows raise up. Each time I say something and your eyebrows raise up, your lips purse. And the other thing is if I say something that you're not as familiar with and what a workout, how that makes sense to you, your eyes move. Because their eyes move, that triggers different parts of the brain. Now the more still your eyes are, the more you're taking it in, but may not be processing it. So when you stop and think, oh, I wonder how I could use that. Who could I do that with? So when we're having those thoughts, our eyes actually flicker off to the side. Now most people respond to that favorably because they know that the person thinking. But when you actually think about it and most people don't even consciously notice it. But you're almost tightening lips of smiling and the rays of the eyebrows. And the particularly your side would tilt at the head when something really is appealing to you. We all have those little signals. And those micro non-verbals are really important. And the gracious one is you wait until I'm finished. And I breathe before you ask me a question. Because I think one of the signals that we send most frequently, particularly in a busy business world that we live in and meetings that are backed back. And we interrupt mid sentence, very frequently with only half of the information. Now, the really visual people, they only need the noun and the verb . And then they can make a picture. Once they can make a picture, they've got it. So they don't need the end of the sentence. Whereas the auditory people will go nuts. The detail, oriented people will go nuts because the most important piece of information is usually in the object of the sentence, not the subject. So it's at the end. So if we interrupt, we often miss the goal. [Oscar] Which brings us to the distinction between listening to the words. or listening for meaning or anything else there. Is there an example that brings that to life for you that will benefit our listeners? [Allan] I don't, i'd add an extra element. And that is, I've got inside my head and my body a notion or an idea . And I've got some feelings about that. And I have some experience about it. So I've got a reference point associated with the idea that I'm trying to get out. And I've got to get this thing that's in pictures and feelings and ideas, you know, like globe, sort of feelings.I've got to find the words. So it's important for us to recognize that there is the intended message. And what we think and feel. And try to find the words to convey. And if we rushing, that's a really tough call. So rushing and not taking time to go, what is it I'm trying to say. And what is it that I want to say that would be of interest to Oscar, John and to the audience? And it's hard for me to consider what am I trying to say? What are the words? Who are the people who are listening to this? Is it the right sort of words? And when I first referred to the vagus nerve, which is a technical and atomic termI then said it's like the alarm signal. It is a primary alarm system. And that was because I was thinking, that's just a little bit too technical. And when you ask about the brain, I thought, wow, what's the easiest, most comprehensive way that I talk about it. And the fact that we see, hear and feel is pretty universal. So it's me considering what would be the way to increase the likelihood of you receiving, taking it in, making it important and relevant to you. And then you checking to see that it's close to what I was trying to get across. And the fact that we draw that in the tiniest amount of time is really quite remarkable. And I think if somebody said to me, how do we improve the productivity of Australian business? I would say hit the pause button before you speak. Take the breath, cause oxygen in the brain will increase the thinking. Make sure you've had plenty of water, cause water will improve your thinking. And then just checking with somebody, because sometimes people speak in meetings for five and ten minutes . And I'm always amazed how many people don't take notes. And I think, wow, you're going to remember that. And it's not very likely. See, the smaller the bites, the more ways I can say something. The better the quality of my questions. And there is no doubt, the fewer words, the better the question. And in fact, if I could have a wish for the human race, it would be the only question they ask, would be what and how, withd less then eight words. If we had what and how, with less then eight words, our bias. See, most of our questions are leading questions. In fact, the large amount of them are suggestions. Oscar, don't you think it would be a good idea if we were to talk to John and get this to be, you know, broken into ten different points of view. Given the variety of audience, and we could do it in two minute blocks, five minute blocks, 15y minute blocks, what do you think about that? Now, that's not, that's a suggestion. That bit is couched as a question, and it's totally my point of view. And you'll notice I didn't even pause for you to answer.So if we got good at acknowledging and exploring that we got the meaning, not the words, but the meaning, and then ask what we could do with that to create the maximum benefit for everybody. And then how many different ways might we do that? It would be different. How many times does misunderstanding mean that we're going to go back and do stuff over and over and over? And being clear about what we've exchanged, I think, is by far away. And just simple acknowledgement and clarification, what how . And then confirm, so what you're saying is, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Now, nine times out of 10, when I say, "Oscar, what you're saying is blah, blah, blah, blah." "Have I got that correct?" And you're going to say, "Yep, or no." So then I know that I'd got to go back and have anotherto go. Or, alternatively, I've just generated agreement. Now, that's the best way I can let you know that I heard, because I leave it to you to endorse that I've heard what yo u want me to hear. [Oscar] What's the role of silence? [Allan] It's a place to breathe. It's a place to think. It's a place to interrupt that. Now, have we get into sort of just running? I've finish and you and then, before we know it, we're going 300 miles an hour and now the others aren't actually particularly listening. All I'm doing is making sure that I tell you what I want to tell you. And I just need to hear it. I don't need to have anything to do. You're then doing the same thing. We get into that, really rushed, busy place. And at some point in time, somebody with the seniority will go, "Oscar, well, the way we need to do this, and now I've left with the unilateral decision and you've just been overruled. And you're not going to be very happy, but you probably will never mention it. But you'll be less likely to input the next time. And if we just learn to break that rapidity, the faster we go, the more adrenaline pumps. The less dopamine pumps and the less dopamine, the little things that fly across the nervous system that actually allows the best thought and the best memory. And if dopamine is not transmitting, we just don't remember stuff. And we don't have our best thinking yet, we'll be fast and quick, but we'll forget stuff. So if we could just moderate pace, drop it every now again and go fast and then go, "Can I just check?" What we said. But if we summarise more often and confirmed with each other that we got across what we want to get across. And not say, "Yes, I understand." Because it's so frequently, I understand. And the other person looks and thinks, "I don't know if that's true ." [Oscar] We're reflected on listening in a one-on-one context and in a group context. I'd like to expand the horizon and think about listening systemically. Do you have an example of where you've dealt with stakeholders of multiple context, where you've dealt with countries, continents, where listening matters? [Allan] If I can enter it two ways. Systemic thinking for the audience in my world means that I'm thinking of hearing you speak. And as I'm hearing you, I'm considering the other four or five or six or ten or a hundred people in the room. Now because my expertise is very large, complex groups. If I've got a group of a hundred people, I'm watching you with my direct vision, but I'm tracking every person in the room with my peripheral vision . And every time I see somebody take a breath and lean forward, I know they're the one who's likely to interrupt you. So I'll make direct eye contact immediately with the person who breathes. And I'll indicate to them that I'll be with them in a minute. Now I do that before they get a change. Because the human beings, particularly in groups, take a big breath and then move forward before they speak. Now all I'm doing is tuning my ears and eyes to who breathes. And whoever that is is potentially the interruptor. In the moment I hear somebody breath, I take a big breath and I always raise my hands in the air. Now the moment I raise my hands in the air, they see it and they know that I've tracked them. Systemic thinking is, it is natural for the brain to think system ically. But because we do things in straight lines, in order in sequence, we have programmed events, we run diaries, everything's in a linear fashion. But a system is the circle around us. And so we've actually got a practice stopping and thinking, "Oh, who are the stakeholders here? How many of them are there?" What does that mean? Now in my own experience in running international meetings, there's never a time when I'm hearing somebody speak,and I'm not asking myself, how are the African nations hearing this? Because every word that comes out of an international meeting means something different if you live in Africa. If somebody from an Eastern European country, now the media we in the West talk about providing people with choice. There are people in parts of the world where choice is not at a common phenomena. And we talk about peace. And there are people in the world who have lived in countries where there has never been peace. So it's an abstract concept. So in that instance, I'm constantly giving consideration to who's being addressed here and who's being left out. So I constantly ask the the idiot question. I'll just check one thing. If I were somebody you know, developing world, what might be the thing I might want to be considering in terms of computing and social media? When large number of people in my country don't have computer. And in fact, in some areas where we haven't had rain for a long period of time, cutting water from the well is a far more interest to them. And if we could find an innovative way of moving water during drought, my entire country would be interested in that. So they could have something completely different. Systemically, he's just about considering, firstly, all of the people involved. And all of the cultures that are involved. I frequently say to Australians in particular, Australian males, who do a lot of pointing? And I say to them, in a multicultural society, you need to be careful of the point. 6 0% of the world's population would never do it and consider it extremely rude. So it's just one of those things that I always say to people, learn to roll your forearm. Roll your arm out and show your hand. But don't point. In fact, I say to people, don't do gestures between your shoulders. Because the Asian cultures just do not move forward or point. And there are a lot of people. Different cultures don't even make direct eye contact. In fact, indigenous Australians, don't make people-to-people eye contact. So if we can just be not nervously running around going, "Oh my goodness, how do I do that?" But just simply going, let me just stop for a minute and think. If I were them, what might that be that I'd be interested in? And it's just like, you know, mum and dad having an idea about what the kids need to take for lunch And they're packing up the lunch and not aware that there's a particular event on tomorrow and the teachers have asked for a particular type offood not to be used. But we get so busy, we don't have enough opportunity to let each other know what's going on. And the more we think about interconnections, the more we think about following up, the more we think about getting back quickly and just say, "Busy at the moment, can't get your email. I'll be there within 24 hours." Whereh a lot of people who don't think systemically, "Oh my god, I've got 368 emails and I can't get to them." So systemic is just taking a step back, taking a breath, and going in addition to what I normally think. What other things could I take into consideration? And we just, it's a practice. It's like anything the more we consciously practice it, and the more we become natural and automatic to us. [Oscar] Another one of those distinctions is how people think about time. And whether that's within culture or across culture or across continents, time has a different currency, it has a different perspective. How do you Any provide tips about how to listen through time? [Allan] It's going to, it sounds a bit brash, but just to let the listeners in. I'd run, formally, I've run five international meetings on behalf of the United Nations, not at the United Nations. I've run probably 100 meetings for the OECD, which is the sister organisation. So I spend a lot of time with large groups of people. And it's true. It's Spanish. It's Spanish, are likely to turn up an hour late. Two o'clock, they'll go and have a siesta. Whereas, your fast-moving merchant banker from Wall Street, is not going to take a siesta, probably in at six o'clock in the morning. And your indigenous Australians, they'll set time based on the wind and sun and the temperature rather than a clock. And you've got to admit it. It makes some good sense in it. That dilemma, given that I run meetings, I've had 1200 world leaders in the meeting and it's pretty expected in that culture that you start and finish on time. The way that I have come up with thinking about time, which I think helps me interact with all different cultures, is I think about the importance of being in time. So here, while I'm with you, my brain doesn't go beyond about three or four seconds. And I'm here in present, I'm watching your cues I'm watching John's, who's assisting us with the recording and tracking him. And in the moment, wide lens in the moment. So I'm not thinking about yesterday and I'm not thinking about what we're going to do in hours time. I'm present to that room. And present to the people I'm interacting with. And I frequently say to people, if you can learn that one skill, I'll be present to and with the person as and while they're speaking. So be in the moment and I always say to people, be in this three seconds. Now there is through time. So I've had, and you've probably had, and 2003 seconds since we started. But I'm watching each one and I'm thinking about what have I said, what would be of interest to particular people, how would I be sensitive to different cultures who are listening? And if you were to track it, most of my language has been what's called soft or propositional or choice-laden. So there's been no, this is how it's got to be, there's no have to, it's got to much. So there's no tight definitive, when you're dealing with cross-cultural environment, it's very important that we provide tools in our language. And offer, as I've been doing multiple ideas and options and not having a convergent, this is the way to do it. Now when we operate that way in time, but I hold that time for 20 or 30 minutes or, now most people call it concentration. They say, I'm not good at concentration. I go, that's because your time's too long. So if you hold three seconds, you hold three seconds all day So it's straight away people's concentration enhances. And then there's a cost time, what do we do at the beginning and what do we do at the end? And we often evaluate each other based on what I saw a week ago or a month ago and what I see today. And people often go "Oh,of see no change". A and they go, "wow , what about through time". You know, they could done a wonderful job 15 times in between. And when you saw them and when you've assessed them two months later, they may have been nervous because you were there. And so across time is something we have far too overused and popularised across time. And you won't get an indigenous Australian joining you in across time. So if you say, now let's have a let's meet up in a month's time, I sort of go give it a shot. Don't have the same expectations that they'll be in a diary because they're far more present. And they're interested in what's the next step. And just to give it a, I'm sure you're aware I've been in endurance Athlete for 45 years. And I've run 16 marathons and 11 ultra marathons and I ran 24 hours twice. And people go, oh my goodness, how do you do that? And I go three seconds at a time, one foot after the other. And the minute your brain goes outside that time frame, you star feeling pain, you start thinking about can I, can't I? The voice starts to kick in, the negative thoughts come in, the pain comes in. And if we could just get better at being here and now, the difference would be enormous, particularly across culture. [Oscar] As we come to a close, what would be the one tip you would provide to our listeners to deepen their listening? [Allan] Regularly check that you've heard and understood the meaning that the person wanted to deliver. Not my opinion, my judgment, my assumption, my hallucination, but to really reflect back and check that what you want to be heard is what I've got. And it would mean that you'd feel heard, you'd feel more confident that whatever I was going to do with what you've told me is just a mathematically better chance. And the other really important thing is every time I repeat back what you said, it's going into a different part of my brain and it's now stored in two different or three different locations. So my mathematical chance of memory is just so much higher if I check in regularly that I've got what you want me to get. If we, if we were listening better and we were in the moment and I wasn't venturing back to linking what said to something happened a week ago and I'm not jumping forward assuming that this is where we're going to go without hearing half the message. And I am going to be here present in the three seconds and I am going to clarify once I've done that, what can I do to assist the other person in mobilizing their thoughts of their ideas? [Oscar] Allan, you've touched on three seconds and being present. And that helps the listener. How do we help the speaker as well? [Allan] Lovely, lovely, comment. If you're speaking and every now and again I noticed that you start to flicker and move and then you take a big breath. Every time you take a big breath I'm going to come in on the uptake of the breath and I'll give back to you what I think I've heard or clarified. And then when you come back to me, and go, yeah, that's pretty much how I want you to get it. And I would then ask a question that triggers not the future part of the brain because everybody goes, so where to from here? Which is a question I'll encourage people to drop that one. But if I go, what would or might be the next step in the process? You can stay in the present and speculate. And there's actually a part of your brain which I'm pointing to just on the top of right hand side of your forehead that actually processes speculation. Now it's not an opinion, it's not going to the future, it's not having a decision. But what would could or might be able to do and then make it collective? And that's the first time that it's not true of us, but it's now us . So what could we do with that. Or what might we do to roll right, to gift it to somebody else to expand it, to get more people involved? What would be something you think would be useful? So what, would, could, might questions, trigger a beautiful part of the brain that will explore and invent without having the pressure of having to make a decision or be right and all? I think that would be how it assists the speaker. And I think by doing it well, it's not assisting the speaker, but it's enabling us to operate as partners rather than as two individuals. [Oscar] What a delight for place to finish. [Allan] Thank you.Indeed. [Various Speakers] Deep listening, it could happen to you. I thought I was a good listener, in fact I've staked my business on it. Turns out there's a lot getting in my way of being able to really, really listen. And one of the biggest changes to my practice is my abilit.,Since reading Oscar's book, to notice my internal dialogue and the fact that I often ask presumptive questions. Oscar's book is small in size, but it's absolutely not small on quality. It's beautifully written, it's gorgeously illustrated and it packs a serious punch. You cannot be a human being with ears and not read this book. Deep listening. If you're enjoying the series, the best way to stay up to date is to subscribe via your favourite podcast application, Apple Podcasts, Spotify and now available on Amazon Alexa. We'd love to hear your feedback as well. We're always listening for ways to improve the show. So please leave a review on your favourite podcast application as well. You know we'll be listening. Deep listening. Deep listening. [Oscar] What I love about Allan is his ability to explain really complicated topics in a really simple way that's effective and articulate. What a privilege it was to listen to the way that he explains the connection inside your mind as well as inside your nervous system. It's refreshing for somebody else to reflect on how I listened during the interview and the things I did well when he talked about the role of nonverbal listening. In Allan's own words, he talked about the importance of my micro non verbals and how my breathing influenced how you were speaking. As science continues to explore the mind as a new frontier is opening up and that's understanding human behaviour as it relates to the nervous system. And specifically Allan mentioned the vagus nerve and the way it connects our whole body together. This is fascinating for me as it expands how I think about listening but also reinforces some of the most simple things I say to people I work with. When I talk about, are you listening to your gut feel, or are you ignoring it at your peril? I think for a lot of us we notice that when we're not listening to our gut and only listening to our head, our listening effectiveness declines. One big take out for me was the role of asking questions to deepen your listening. But not the way I thought about it. Allan explained that many of the questions we ask are either statements with a question mark or simply biased questions. And the thing that I took away from the interview that I've been practicing, really consistently since then, is focus on questions that only have seven words or less. And I've been practicing this questioning approach and it's significantly deepened my listening and more importantly detached me from my bias as a true listener. I wonder what you'll take out and apply from Allan's interview. Thanks for listening. [Allan] If I go, I'm just wondering. Now that whole stumble is rehearsed. Now the moment that I do that stumble I can stumble for 15 minutes and he will wait until I'm finished. Nobody will interrupt a stumbling. And it sends a message that this isn't my standard question that I'm actually formulating with a question. Which will always capture audience to go, wow this will be interesting. Because when I'm just wondering, you're entire nervous system. It's a pausebutton. So if I've got a group of people in conflict and they're a staffer, you tell them, that's all I've got to do to interrupt it. You're attending non-verbals, are exceptional. You hardly had an eye movement until I paused. So you weren't even processing what I was saying in your own world until I finished. Now the average person has never noticed that. Your constant non-verbal affirming. And I could, you'd signal to me non-verbaly when you had a question. For me, it was excellent. And I loved where you went to and how you went, where you went. So certainly, there's nothing glaringly obvious, as long as your stopping me enough to make sure that the questions the audience want to ask. [Various Speakers] Deep listening. Deep listening. Deep listening. Impact beyond words.